My Q&A with Joseph C. Goulden, the veteran journalist and author of
magazine.
Before he became a writer,
Goulden worked as an underground minor and in military counterintelligence. A
native Texan, Goulden worked as a reporter for the Dallas Morning News and
later the Philadelphia Inquirer, where he was the newspaper’s chief of the
Washington bureau.
As a newsman, Goulden said he
played softball with Fidel Castro and dodged bullets from Castroist guerillas
in Guatemala. He has written 18 books, including two highly regarded books on
intelligence – “Truth Is The First Casualty” on the Gulf of Tonkin incident;
and “The Death Merchant” on rogue intelligence officer Edwin P.Wilson.
Goulden’s updated “The
Dictionary of Espionage: Spyspeak Into English” was recently published by Dover
Publications. Peter Earnest, a retired CIA officer and now the executive
director of the International Spy Museum, wrote the forward to the updated
“Dictionary of Espionage.”
Joseph C. Goulden was
interviewed by Paul Davis, an online columnist (Threatcon) and a contributing
editor to the Journal.
IACSP: Your updated “The
Dictionary of Espionage” was recently published. Why did you write the book
originally and why update it?
Goulden:Well, I’ve always
read spy nonfiction and I’m a chronic note taker. I started a file of these
terms way back, 30, 40 years ago. And suddenly I said to myself there might be
a little book here. At the time there was no good dictionary of these terms.
The terms were thrown around and made familiar by the Church Committee, and
anybody who goes to a James Bond movie knows about them. So I thought I’d check
out where these words came from and how they are used and give some anecdotes.
It did quite well.
IACSP: Who is your target
audience?
Goulden:First of all, people
in the intelligence community who want some of these things available in a
nonclassified form. The CIA, the FBI and other government agencies put out
their internal glossaries, but usually those are classified at least
Confidential. Secondly, the book is for anybody who is just interested in
espionage. That’s a lot of people.
IACSP: That includes me.
Goulden: The way this new
edition came about was the acquisition editor for Dover Books, which
specializes in out of print books, was in Washington last summer and he went by
the International Spy Museum and talked to Peter Earnest, who is the executive
director, and by coincidence, a good friend of mine. He asked him what book he
would like to see back in print. And the way Peter tells me, he turned around
and pulled the “The Dictionary of Espionage” off the shelf and said they could
sell this book by the hundreds. So this gave me a chance to do an update on it,
correct some errors, flesh it out a bit and put in some spy trivia. This is a book
where you can sit down and pick any page and find something, I hope, of
interest.
IACSP: Peter Earnest notes in
his forward to the book that you’ve known more spies and more about clandestine
operations than many of the real spies he writes about. As a journalist you’ve
written a good bit about espionage and the intelligence world, am I right?
Goulden: My main exposure
came about in the 1960s. I had an Alicia Patterson fellowship in Guatemala and
Mexico. There was a strong insurgency going on in Guatemala supported by the
Cubans. I wrote quite a bit about that and I got to know quite a few of the CIA
and special ops people on the ground. By the time I got to Washington for the
Philadelphia Inquirer, I wrote excessively about the Pueblo, the U.S. Navy spy
ship taken in by the North Koreans. And for the last 20 years, I’ve reviewed
books on intelligence and espionage for the Washington Times.
IACSP: Can you tell us a bit
more about your background?
Goulden: I had three
ambitions as a kid. I wanted to be a reporter for a big city paper, I wanted to
have the Washington bureau for a big paper and I wanted to work aboard. And by
the time I was 34 years old, I’d done it all. I had written a couple of books
on the side when I was with the Philadelphia Inquirer and I had a little money
saved and I had some comp time coming from the Inquirer, so I thought I could
make it. If I didn’t I could always go back into newspapering. My book “The
Superlawyers” was published in 1972 and the second week out it was on the New
York Times best-seller list and it stayed there for 23 weeks, getting up to
number three. That gave me the cushion and the courage I needed to keep on
doing it full time.
IACSP: As a Navy veteran who
served on an aircraft carrier in the Tonkin Gulf on “Yankee Station” during the
Vietnam War, I thought your book on the Tonkin Gulf incident that started the
war was interesting. Can you tell us a bit about that book?
Goulden: The basic story is
President Johnson wanted a pretext to go to war in Vietnam and he seized upon
the pretext even when the Navy said hold off, let us figure out exactly what
happened out there. We’re still trying to do an after action report. The
skipper of the USS Maddux told me that he was still sending flash messages off
to Washington, trying to get them to slow down, when he looked up and saw jets
going overhead to Haiphong.
IACSP: Is there any one
espionage story in particular that you’ve covered over the years that most
interest you, even today?
Goulden: The Alger Hiss case,
which I’ve made a long study of. My interest goes back to when Nixon ran for
governor of California. He was beaten and ABC News put out a so-called
documentary called “The Political Death of Richard Nixon.” Included in the
people interviewed was Alger Hiss. Now by happenstance my publisher at the
Philadelphia Inquirer, Walter Annenberg, was a director of ABC and owned the
ABC outlet in Philadelphia. He raised hell at corporate management and refused
to let the outlet air the documentary. There was a great hubbub about
censorship and Walter called me up to his office and said OK, it is obvious by
some of the mail we’ve been getting that these people don’t have any idea who
Alger Hiss was and why this was an important case. I want you to go back and
write me a long piece and if it runs two pages of type, that’s OK with me. The
Philadelphia Inquirer library had copies of transcripts of both of his trials,
which was one hell of a lot of paper. I holed up in an office and I read that
stuff nonstop for two weeks and took notes. I wrote an exhaustive study of the
Hiss case, which ended with his being found guilty by a federal court jury and
sent to prison. We made a big splash out of that piece and I got a very nice
note from none other than Richard Nixon. The Nation magazine wrote that Hiss
was framed and I wrote several long rebuttal pieces. The Nation later got some
Russian general to look at the KGB files during the period the Russians were
opening up some of their files. The general reports back that the KGB had
nothing about Alger Hiss in their files, therefore he is innocent.
IACSP: That’s because Hiss
was a spy for the GRU, Soviet military intelligence.
Goulden: That’s the whole
thing! By happenstance, this general was working on POW issues and he was in
Washington testifying. I was there with another old red-baiter, a guy named
Herb Romerstein, and we looked across from one another and as soon as the
testimony ended he was coming out and we hit him - one on one side, one on the
other. Here are two former PFCs in the U.S. Army cross-examining a three-star
general in the Red Army, with a four-star U.S. general acting as an
interpreter. We told him Hiss didn’t work for the KGB he worked for the GRU and
the Comintern. Did you check their records? No, he didn’t, as he was asked to
check the KGB. He went back to Moscow and said the GRU was not releasing
information on Hiss. And he retracted what he said about Hiss. Now the New York
Times had run the thing on the front page when they said Hiss was innocent. The
retraction? What do you think? Way inside.
IACSP: I believe there are
intercepts that absolutely prove that Hiss was a Soviet spy, am I right?
Goulden: Yes, the Venona
intercepts. But the GRU has still not released anything on him.
IACSP: But it is beyond doubt
that Hiss was in fact a Soviet spy.
Goulden: Case closed.
IACSP: I’d like to ask about
your book “The Death Merchant.” I believe it was the first book of yours I
read. In light of the death of Kaddafi in Libya, please tell us about how you
came to write the book about Edwin Wilson, the illegal arms dealer?
Goulden: Edwin Wilson was
working as a contract officer for a naval intelligence task force that did
reporting on foreign ship movements and such. Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, then the
director of naval intelligence, told me that he was down at some senator’s
office and there was a weird guy there, a big, strapping fella, and he came
over to Bobby and said, you know I work for you. Bobby said, yeah, tell me
more. They went to lunch and this guy said, look I know the Navy needs some
influence with senators and I can certainly handle that for you. Bobby didn’t
say much, just said thanks, I’ll think about it. He went back to the office and
checked him out and sure enough he had these Navy contracts. So Bobby burned
him on the spot. He kicked him out. Wilson then gets contracts with Kaddafi and
he wants Special Forces, DoD men and others to come to Libya to work for him.
First thing, the Libyans took their passports. There are three ways to get out
of the country; you leave legitimately on a passport, you swim out, or you walk
across the desert. Hell, they were trapped. The Libyans start doing all sorts
of nefarious things and they could not do a damn thing about it. The irony is,
Wilson was making millions of dollars on legitimate military contracts,
uniforms and boots and things like that, but he couldn’t resist the dirty part.
Things started rolling up on him and people who worked for him went before
Grand Juries, and they talked to the FBI, the CIA and all that. The U.S.
Attorney’s Office in D.C. had a whole platoon of those guys. The U.S. Attorney
allowed me to talk to these guys after they were debriefed. They had a lot they
wanted to get off their chest and it was fascinating to listen to them. One
person I tried to get to was Wilson, but he ignored me. So he finally gets out
of jail and calls me and raises hell for my not getting his side of the story.
I said I asked you for an interview and you had a chance to testify, but
didn’t. What am I supposed to do, make up your side of it? He called me a dirty
name and hung up.
IACSP: Well, he may not have
liked the book, but we did.
Thanks for talking to us.
Paul Davis is a contributing
editor to the Journal. He can be reached at PaulDavisOnCrime@aol.com